S5E15: Barbara Oakley on Constructivism vs. Learning Science

In this episode, I sit down with Barbara Oakley—engineer, bestselling author, and one of the most influential voices in the science of learning—to talk about why so much instruction still misses the mark, what “good teaching” looks like when you take cognition seriously, and what’s at stake if we keep defaulting to methods that feel progressive but fail learners.

The conversation picks up right where Oakley’s Seattle Times essay lands: Washington’s math outcomes aren’t just “concerning”—she calls them a crisis, and she lays out what she thinks would actually help. We use that piece as a launch point to talk about how to recognize when instruction is failing students, why certain approaches persist long past their sell-by date, and what learning science suggests we should do instead.

🚨 Registration is open! 🚨

This summer, join me in New York City for The Explicit Teaching Institute—a five-day deep dive into the science of learning and the highest-leverage moves in explicit instruction. We’ll spend our mornings unpacking the research, our middays studying expert teaching on video (courtesy of Steplab!), and our afternoons rehearsing the moves that make instruction clear, efficient, and reliable—so you leave with a practical toolkit you can use on day one.

🗽 NYC | July 27–31, 2026

👉 Learn more + register here: 🎟️ Explicit Teaching Institute registration

From there, we widen the aperture: what principles from the science of learning apply across every subject, what’s at stake for equity and opportunity when weak instruction becomes normal, and what one change a teacher could make tomorrow to strengthen lessons immediately. We also shift into the “ed-tech hope cycle”—what MOOCs taught us about scaling learning, what they didn’t, and where AI tutoring could genuinely help (or just repackage old problems with new branding). We close with what Oakley is most excited about in teaching and learning over the next decade.

Topics

What Oakley is most hopeful about in the next decade of teaching and learning

What drew Oakley into learning science—and how her perspective has evolved

Why she describes math education (in WA) as a “crisis,” and how to diagnose failing instruction

Learning science principles that transfer beyond math to every subject

Why outdated instructional philosophies persist across disciplines

What’s at stake: equity, opportunity, and the broader social costs of weak instruction

One actionable change teachers can make tomorrow to strengthen lessons

What we learned from MOOCs—and what that implies for AI tutoring

About Barbara Oakley

Barbara Oakley is a professor of engineering and a leading voice in the science of learning. She’s the author of A Mind for Numbers and Learning How to Learn (and related books and courses), and she’s helped bring learning science to a global audience through massively popular MOOCs, keynote talks, and widely read public writing. Her work consistently presses educators to align instruction with how memory and skill actually develop—clear explanations, deliberate practice, spaced retrieval, and evidence over “vibes.”

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The podcast you’re listening to is sponsored by John Catt from Hachette Learning and hosted by Dr. Zach Groshell. John Catt publishes some of the best books in education, including my book, Just Tell Them: The Power of Explanations and Explicit Teaching.